Question Regarding Skills Design

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Archaaz
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Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Archaaz »

I am attempting to design a sort of organic class system. I have nothing programmed at this point, and am merely brainstorming. Rather than assign a class upon character generation, I want to have raising certain primary skills lower all other incompatible skills. Additionally, if possible, I would like to have certain skill choices grayed out at character creation of certain skills are selected.

I am focusing on the original eight professions from the Ultima series (starting with Ultima IV, with each based on a particular Virtue), and have assigned a Primary Skill to each profession. When this skill is raised, all primary skills associated with other professions are decreased by the same amount (or, probably, more). Other, secondary skills also lower certain primary skills. Wearing or carrying certain weapons, armor, items, and even clothing cause temporary loss in particular skills, which will linger for quite some time after removing the item to prevent toggling with hot keys and other workarounds.

A lot of this is to impose a certain degree of my aesthetic vision. Some restrictions are "realistic," some arbitrary. Basically, I want a Paladin to look and act like a Paladin, a Mage to look and act like a Mage, etc. (what I envision them looking and acting like), at least within a certain range. I do not, however, really want to implement a full fledged class system. I also want to try to encourage more group play. The skill cap will be set at the original 700 to force players to make certain choices about their characters.

Some skills (namely healing, crafting, and knowledge-based skills) will not have any effect on any other skills, and may be practiced freely. This will allow a bit more variety, and encourage professions/combinations other than the original eight. Many rogue skills are not virtuous and will consequently not be compatible with certain skills (namely Chivalry, but also many others). I may also try to tie this into a heavily modified version of the Virtue system (but that is another post, for a much later date).

Some of the Primary Skills were fairly easy to isolate:

Paladin (Chivalry): Somewhat modified version of the original (Sacred journey removed, for example).
Mage (Magery): With a few spells removed, altered (namely removal of Recall).
Druid (Druid Magic): A new magic-based skill, including animal forms and new reagents.
Bard (Musicianship and a new Bard Song skill): The two will function in tandem.
Tinker (Tinkering): Pretty much the same as the original skill, at least so far.
Shepherd (Herding): Will allow up to five animal slots with Taming. Without it, only one is available. Also, only (most) animals are tamable, no monsters. May include some additional perks as well.

I am having more difficulty with the Ranger and the Fighter, and would appreciate some feedback (if anyone made it this far... :)

Ranger:

In the original Ultima games, the Ranger was the class of the virtue Spirituality. I want to work this into the Ranger’s primary skill. At first glance, Tracking seems a natural choice, but it is not particularly steeped in Spirituality.

After some brainstorming, I decided to perhaps make the primary skill Meditation, but not the same Meditation skill practiced by Mages. That skill would be renamed Concentration, would only effect Mana regeneration, and would only be usable by Mages and Druids (maybe Bards).

The new Ranger-based Meditation skill would increase with use of the skill, with a slight increase possible if practiced at one of the eight original shrines. Actively, it would also function as Spirit Speak, but would only grant the ability to understand ghosts. This is for flavor. Passively, it would function as Resisting Spells. This is to give the skill a practical use and not require the Ranger to waste a skill slot on a useless skill. Note that both Spirit Speak and Resisting Spells would still exist.

While I like the above system, it nevertheless does not really scream “ranger” to me. Would it perhaps make sense to also use a certain amount in Meditation as a prerequisite for learning Tracking, or perhaps have it give some bonus to Archery? Can a skill pull triple duty in such a manner? I had considered using it instead of Tactics for Archery, but I do not want to limit archery to Rangers.

Fighter:

For the fighter, I considered making Focus (renamed Battle Focus) the Primary Skill. I want to make its use active, as opposed to passive. Thus, in order to use it, the player must select it. It then either lasts for a specific time, with a notification revealing when it stops, or until it is turned off. It would still be raised in the same manner, but would now only effect stamina (maybe very slight HP increase). This will make the skill specific to fighters, since it will cause other primary skills to decrease. This is an attempt to make the fighter the best pure combat character.
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*Edwards
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by *Edwards »

Lucky you!

Some work done so far with distro099 are quite not far from what you are seeking so you can easily see how systems are inter-reliated and modify on your own if necessary.

The basics can be found in the pkg/systems/classes, pkg/items/equipment, pkg/systems/attributes, pkg/systems/combat, pkg/systems/loot

The actual Distro099 is mainly what you are looking for:

I.E.: you have restrictions on the item you equip as someone who concentrate on magics cannot wear platemails, ringmails and such; someone specialized on weapons ( mace, fence, sword, wrest, etc.. ) has serious penalties against magics and doing magics; etc.

You may find 6 different classes which has been tested for the past 10 years so you may find well balanced systems.

You were speaking of different items modulations, there is a loot system which can create above 100 000 different items, some rare and other more present in the world. Give it a look, I'm sure you will find everything you're looking for with it and it's a good starting point. A working project ;)
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Archaaz
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Archaaz »

Ah, thank you! I will take a look. Modifying the existing class system might be more efficient than attempting such a system from scratch. At the very least I can hopefully garner some insight as to how the code works.

I will be using a Pol 0.95 Distro, which I think does not contain classes. Ultimately, I think this might be the best method, to simply start from scratch, so to speak, since many of the class system of later Distros may be interwoven into areas I may wish to change. I am hoping for something of an earlier version of UO, without a lot of the bells and whistles that have been added over the years; a sort of immersion-heavy, RP-light sort of hybrid design (it makes sense in my head....:). Hopefully, I can manage to make my "class" system work within such a framework. I definitely need to put in some time learning eScript.
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*Edwards
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by *Edwards »

It shouldn't be hard. I started from scracth and look what I could accomplish! Ok it took me about 2 years but still ;). Dang, if time weren't missing I would have spend 5 other years just to accomplish THE PERFECT SERVER muahahaha. However, if you feel something is worth sharing go ahead man. This can only help...
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Archaaz
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Archaaz »

*Edwards wrote:It shouldn't be hard. I started from scracth and look what I could accomplish! Ok it took me about 2 years but still ;). Dang, if time weren't missing I would have spend 5 other years just to accomplish THE PERFECT SERVER muahahaha. However, if you feel something is worth sharing go ahead man. This can only help...
Well, I definitely have the time...:)

I have a question(s), if you do not mind. To what extent can skills be edited using the various Distro/Cores (say Distro 95 running on Core 98)? Is it possible to take a skill and completely rework it such that it no longer resembles the former skill?

I noticed a Druidry skill while checking out a few other shards (may have been from World of Dreams), a variation of which would work very well for what I have in mind. I seem to recall it using a 'druid staff' and a bag of runes, in addition to the Magery skill. Is it absolutely necessary to utilize Magery for such a skill? Could I rework Necromancy (or Spellweaving, or Begging, for that matter) change the name, the spells, characteristics, etc., instead?

I have also seen certain skills tied to Lumberjacking. Could you create an entirely new harvesting skill, new resources, and sources for those resources to go with it? Or must all harvesting skills tie in with existing harvesting skills (Lumberjacking, Mining, Fishing)?

Let's say, for example, that I want to turn Begging into a Widget Gathering skill, but do not want it to retain any of the traits associated with Begging. By double-clicking the tool (a Widget Gatherer), and targeting a Widget Plant, my character performs a bowing motion and, if the check is successful, gathers X amount of Widgets, and maybe an increase in Widget Gathering. For the purpose of this example none of these items existed prior to fiddling with the Distro; no Widgets, no Widget Gathering Tool, and no Widget Plant.

I am not necessarily wondering how to do it at this point, only if it is possible.

Thanks in advance!
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*Edwards
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by *Edwards »

You know what is wonderfull with POL? Everything is possible. So yes it is.

You can create absolutely everything you want. No joke. Tell me what you wanna do, I will forward you to the right place so you have a starting point.

In this case, you're speaking of a druid book. With distro099 look at the pkg/items/magicBooks and pkg/systems/spells you'll find an earth book, necro book and even a song book. You can define the skills you want your spells to use, etc.

About your begging tool, this would simply be some kind of items you create that when you define it in an itemdesc.cfg you give attach a script to it ( look pkg/items/bandage/config/itemdesc.cfg ), then inside the .src file you would define what you want the item to do. Using the Harvert function would be useless in this situation, but you can define it somewhat like it is in the pkg/skills/bard/begging/begging.src and so on....

You have thousands of exemples in Distro099 that can be used.
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Archaaz
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Archaaz »

*Edwards wrote:Lucky you!

Some work done so far with distro099 are quite not far from what you are seeking so you can easily see how systems are inter-reliated and modify on your own if necessary.

The basics can be found in the pkg/systems/classes, pkg/items/equipment, pkg/systems/attributes, pkg/systems/combat, pkg/systems/loot

The actual Distro099 is mainly what you are looking for:

I.E.: you have restrictions on the item you equip as someone who concentrate on magics cannot wear platemails, ringmails and such; someone specialized on weapons ( mace, fence, sword, wrest, etc.. ) has serious penalties against magics and doing magics; etc.

You may find 6 different classes which has been tested for the past 10 years so you may find well balanced systems.

You were speaking of different items modulations, there is a loot system which can create above 100 000 different items, some rare and other more present in the world. Give it a look, I'm sure you will find everything you're looking for with it and it's a good starting point. A working project ;)

I am still hoping to implement the system I mentioned, as I prefer a tad bit more freedom, but have a few questions in case I cannot implement my system and decide to opt for using the class system.

1. Do you know if this is relatively the same class system as is used with 0.98?

2. Is six the max, or can more classes be added? My design will require at least eight, but more likely somewhere between nine and twelve, including a few different caster classes. It will also require tweaking a few of the existing classes.

3. If more can be added, how intertwined in other systems is the class system? Is it more modular in nature, and thus easy to simply drop new classes into the system?

4. Are there six skills because the character creation profession gump includes six slots? If so, I assume it would be possible to create a custom gump with more slots.

Thanks in advance (and for all your help so far!
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*Edwards
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by *Edwards »

In the current development of the distro099, you will find 6 different class ( pkg/systems/classes ) with unique bonus/penalties ( added into various systems... ). If you wish to add new class it is possible, all references can be found in pkg/systems/classes.

If you run the Distro099, you can always uses .classesInfo to get more familiar with how it works. Or just take a look at the pkg/systems/classes.
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Archaaz
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Archaaz »

*Edwards wrote:In the current development of the distro099, you will find 6 different class ( pkg/systems/classes ) with unique bonus/penalties ( added into various systems... ). If you wish to add new class it is possible, all references can be found in pkg/systems/classes.

If you run the Distro099, you can always uses .classesInfo to get more familiar with how it works. Or just take a look at the pkg/systems/classes.
Thanks again for your help, Edwards! I have been exploring the 099 Distro and the files you mentioned, and I have decided to use the 099 Class system instead of my original idea (though I may fiddle with it in the future). Your system is quite elegant and thorough and allows for everything I wanted to include with my system, with only a little modification.

Here is basically what I want to do regarding modifying the system:

1. Remove Crafter and PP
2. Change Thief to Rogue (I think)
3. Change Warrior to Fighter
4. Add Druid, Paladin, Shepherd, Tinker
5. Add from two to six more classes at some point
6. Expand the list of skills available to each Class (all harvesting, crafting, and knowledge skills will be available to all classes). I also want a degree of overlap on other skills.
7. Switch and remove certain class bonuses (still tracing these).

Are there files besides the following that need to be modified?

Classes.inc
Classes_Ref.cfg
CanEquip.inc
SystemInfo.cfg

Do I simply add the classes I want to, and remove the classes I do not from, the Classes_Ref file? Can I expand the list of skills for each class in that same file without problems? Also, can I include new skills (Druidism, Farming, Chivalry, etc.) as well as my own created skills? I cannot seem to locate a numbered master skills cfg file, if there is one.

I also wish to get rid of the Race System, the Level System and the Master Class system. How many and which files would I need to edit to remove these systems without causing problems? Can I simply nullify the lines in each relevant file (//), or do they affect multiple other files? If I were to simply delete the Races folder would it cause problems elsewhere?

Files relevant to Levels/Ranks system (that I can detect):

Ranks.inc
ShowClasse.src

Thanks in advance!
Lambert the Old
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Re: Question Regarding Skills Design

Post by Lambert the Old »

Nice list!! Just downloaded the app for this. If you need any help with things in CR I can help you.
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