Let's all list the reasons why we use Penultima Online and not use other UO Server Emu's.
Mine are;
Easy to understand/learn POL's eScript
It's the first emu I tried and never wanted anything else
Why use POL?
Well, I have looked at that other emu with "UO" in it's name and quite frankly my reason for loving POL is it's easy to learn. The eScript language that is. I am an experienced programmer. Well, somewhat experienced. And all that "wrapping" that the afore mentioned other emulator requires for each script would be very confusing for a new person to programming/scripting. Now I realize anyone used to programming in C or C sharp will find that nothing unusual but if you want to attract people to your emu, KISS (Keep It Simple Sir) and POL is simple but not at the expense of versatility. To be honest, POL is a marvel because it is easy to learn and very versatile. My only dificulty is the somewhat cryptic "for" loops but again I'd still take POL over that other emu.
I also agree with all the above comments about the devs and the POL family we have here. For the most part we get along very well and the devs are always ready to help and answer questions.
Anyway, that's my two shillings worth.
TTFN
I also agree with all the above comments about the devs and the POL family we have here. For the most part we get along very well and the devs are always ready to help and answer questions.
Anyway, that's my two shillings worth.
TTFN
Why? Why don't give other programmers (or rather scripters) the sources of POL?ive been taught that KISS stands for keep it simple, stupid. Anyways i have tried many emulators and POL is the best by far, easy to learn escript, very flexible and also a great dev team here at www.polserver.com even though they have lifes they do the best job that they can do.
I'll answer the open source question.
It's quite simple.
Let's say POL is open source and let's assume four people named Fred, Bob, John and Art each make their own changes to the emulator and release their respective versions to the "world". Now imagine people posting questions here for help on each of these emulator versions. How would anyone be able to provide a central location for help on POL when you'd essentially have five versions (given my example above, the original and the four new ones) out there? Now imagine several dozen Freds, Arts, Johns and Bobs rewriting POL and releasing their respective versions. It would be madness to try to support all those modified POLs. If you want open source, write your own and release it or go with an open source emu. The POL developers have stated that they do not want an open source emulator and I support that essentially for the reason I stated above. Besides, why should the POL developers give away their hard work?
As to the KISS, yes the last 'S' usually represents the word 'stupid' but since I prefer civillity in most all my posts I used 'Sir'.
It's quite simple.
Let's say POL is open source and let's assume four people named Fred, Bob, John and Art each make their own changes to the emulator and release their respective versions to the "world". Now imagine people posting questions here for help on each of these emulator versions. How would anyone be able to provide a central location for help on POL when you'd essentially have five versions (given my example above, the original and the four new ones) out there? Now imagine several dozen Freds, Arts, Johns and Bobs rewriting POL and releasing their respective versions. It would be madness to try to support all those modified POLs. If you want open source, write your own and release it or go with an open source emu. The POL developers have stated that they do not want an open source emulator and I support that essentially for the reason I stated above. Besides, why should the POL developers give away their hard work?
As to the KISS, yes the last 'S' usually represents the word 'stupid' but since I prefer civillity in most all my posts I used 'Sir'.
You know I never really thought about open source in that respect before but you are right. I have to say I agree with you on this. I am glad there is a dedicated group of dev's that work on the core and make the changes that are needed/requested and it is all kept in one nice and neat package.Yukiko wrote:I'll answer the open source question.
It's quite simple.
Let's say POL is open source and let's assume four people named Fred, Bob, John and Art each make their own changes to the emulator and release their respective versions to the "world". Now imagine people posting questions here for help on each of these emulator versions. How would anyone be able to provide a central location for help on POL when you'd essentially have five versions (given my example above, the original and the four new ones) out there? Now imagine several dozen Freds, Arts, Johns and Bobs rewriting POL and releasing their respective versions. It would be madness to try to support all those modified POLs. If you want open source, write your own and release it or go with an open source emu. The POL developers have stated that they do not want an open source emulator and I support that essentially for the reason I stated above. Besides, why should the POL developers give away their hard work?
"I am not opposed to open source as a rule. It has its place but in the case of something like POL it does seem impracticle."
There are of course disadvantages of Pol being closed source:
1. Should the core developers decide, or be unable, to work on the core anymore we would still have an emu, but it would not grow or develop and would eventually die.
2. The advantage of closed source stated above can also be a disadvantage. Say for example the core progresses in a way which nobody (bar the core developers) wants, they are then unable to break away from the official core group and develop Pol. UO emu's are only around today for this very reason, people wanted something different from OSI UO.
I am not trying to advocate that Pol should be open source, this thread is not the place for that, I also know that the development has been great up to this point, but nobody knows the future.
There are of course disadvantages of Pol being closed source:
1. Should the core developers decide, or be unable, to work on the core anymore we would still have an emu, but it would not grow or develop and would eventually die.
2. The advantage of closed source stated above can also be a disadvantage. Say for example the core progresses in a way which nobody (bar the core developers) wants, they are then unable to break away from the official core group and develop Pol. UO emu's are only around today for this very reason, people wanted something different from OSI UO.
I am not trying to advocate that Pol should be open source, this thread is not the place for that, I also know that the development has been great up to this point, but nobody knows the future.
How many open source emus are there? I know of one.
Anyway, as this forum is not about why POL is not open source and all that I will not post a response to open source comments again but...
*grins*
I have to respond to Kadmos.
For number 2, yes I might agree that in some cases that could be an advantage too. However, POL is very very customizable as it is from a scripting standpoint. To give an example of how POL rates versus say RunUO on flexibility, I read a thread on the RunUO forums from someone right after they made RunUO open source. The poster said he was so glad it was OS now because he could now change the use delay on potions. Now he might have been in error as I have no idea how potions scripts work on RunUO but it sounded to me like the "delay before the next use" is a core function in RunUO and they are not in POL.
Beside that why should the developers give their work to someone or many someones who would be in competition to them. If someone wants to develop an emulator and they have the skill to write C or Delphi code or whetever language they are proficient in, let them develop their own emu. I wonder how many shard developers are willing to give away their very special custom scripts to the POL community?
Let's have a show of hands. How many of those who want POL to be open source would release their entire shard scriptbase as open source? This is a rhetorical question ofcourse. I doubt very few would be willing to do that. I know I used to be in favour of giving away scripts and have posted some on Scriptworld but I don't give many away anymore.
I bet even the shard developers who use RunUO (an Opensource project emulator) would refuse to put their custom scripts out as open source code.
Anyway, I think I have said enough on this one.
Anyway, as this forum is not about why POL is not open source and all that I will not post a response to open source comments again but...
*grins*
I have to respond to Kadmos.
To answer number 1, that is a reasonable argument. I would agree that in that instance it would have been beneficial if POL was open source. The unfortunate thing is that if it were open source now then we would have the version problem I posted above. Perhaps we could beg the developers that if they should ever give up and throw in the towel that they would either find someone to whom they could pass the torch or release POL as an open source emu.There are of course disadvantages of Pol being closed source:
1. Should the core developers decide, or be unable, to work on the core anymore we would still have an emu, but it would not grow or develop and would eventually die.
2. The advantage of closed source stated above can also be a disadvantage. Say for example the core progresses in a way which nobody (bar the core developers) wants, they are then unable to break away from the official core group and develop Pol. UO emu's are only around today for this very reason, people wanted something different from OSI UO.
For number 2, yes I might agree that in some cases that could be an advantage too. However, POL is very very customizable as it is from a scripting standpoint. To give an example of how POL rates versus say RunUO on flexibility, I read a thread on the RunUO forums from someone right after they made RunUO open source. The poster said he was so glad it was OS now because he could now change the use delay on potions. Now he might have been in error as I have no idea how potions scripts work on RunUO but it sounded to me like the "delay before the next use" is a core function in RunUO and they are not in POL.
Beside that why should the developers give their work to someone or many someones who would be in competition to them. If someone wants to develop an emulator and they have the skill to write C or Delphi code or whetever language they are proficient in, let them develop their own emu. I wonder how many shard developers are willing to give away their very special custom scripts to the POL community?
Let's have a show of hands. How many of those who want POL to be open source would release their entire shard scriptbase as open source? This is a rhetorical question ofcourse. I doubt very few would be willing to do that. I know I used to be in favour of giving away scripts and have posted some on Scriptworld but I don't give many away anymore.
I bet even the shard developers who use RunUO (an Opensource project emulator) would refuse to put their custom scripts out as open source code.
Anyway, I think I have said enough on this one.
-
Sydius
I have never seen the "version" problem mentioned on any organized open-source project on the internet.
UOX3 originally had that issue back before it was organized (at all), but even then, it was a minor issue. Today, it never even comes up, period. Every time somebody starts their own branch, they also create their own web site, and start their own community. It never becomes confusing, and not once has someone posted on the modern UOX3 forums with an issue arising from any but the official version of UOX3 supported by that forum.
Indeed, I would like to see an example where that is an issue for any open-source project, emulator or otherwise, that is organized.
As for them giving away their hard work... well, that is an entirely different issue. They can release the source but maintain the credit, or perhaps release the source under a license that does not allow for unauthorized modification distribution (which would eliminate the above problem entirely, too), and, in most ways, they are giving away their hard work no matter what they do, in exchange for a warm fuzzy feeling and the little bit of fame they receive, as well as for the reward of a job well done. I do not see how providing the source changes any of that.
In the end, though, it is their software, and their decision. It is fully within their right to keep it closed-source. I, too, wish it were open-source, though -- just for the sake of transparency.
UOX3 originally had that issue back before it was organized (at all), but even then, it was a minor issue. Today, it never even comes up, period. Every time somebody starts their own branch, they also create their own web site, and start their own community. It never becomes confusing, and not once has someone posted on the modern UOX3 forums with an issue arising from any but the official version of UOX3 supported by that forum.
Indeed, I would like to see an example where that is an issue for any open-source project, emulator or otherwise, that is organized.
As for them giving away their hard work... well, that is an entirely different issue. They can release the source but maintain the credit, or perhaps release the source under a license that does not allow for unauthorized modification distribution (which would eliminate the above problem entirely, too), and, in most ways, they are giving away their hard work no matter what they do, in exchange for a warm fuzzy feeling and the little bit of fame they receive, as well as for the reward of a job well done. I do not see how providing the source changes any of that.
In the end, though, it is their software, and their decision. It is fully within their right to keep it closed-source. I, too, wish it were open-source, though -- just for the sake of transparency.
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Marilla
The problem with this statement is that it leaves you a really wide-open hole to back out of: If anyone points out an example, you simply can say, "Well obviously, that project is disorganized." The danger of 'disorganization' is the very root of the 'objection' in this case, so that's kind of like saying, "This doesn't suck at all - well, except those times when it does."Sydius wrote:Indeed, I would like to see an example where that is an issue for any open-source project, emulator or otherwise, that is organized.
All that said, though, I have to say that it seems to be getting more and more closer to the point where some other method of development for POL's future might be in order. Closed Source only works when those with the reins have the time and ability to devote to the project. When those people don't, and are unwilling to release the source of turn the project over to someone else, things just eventually dwindle down to little of nothing.
Now, anyone who's paid attention here in the past knows that I love POL, and I appreciate all the work that has been put into it for the five years I've been using it. I understand this is just a game - one provided completely free of charge, and often free of measureably appreciation or support. The constant 'questioning' of time tables and other choices and the pace of progress might often make a dev wonder why they are doing what they are doing, in the first place.
But maybe there comes a time when even absent those issues, those questions should be asked. If a project is giving you nothing in return, and if you can not devote the time it needs to keep it going, then really, what is the point?
I say this, now, only because I have recently decided to forgo upgrading to 096 in lieu of investigating RunUO. Being proficient in C++ and VB on Windows platforms, and working with .NET a lot lately myself, so far I like what I've seen there, especially with it being open-source. My main issue which I have to balance right now is with such a long-running shard with an established base of players and code that has been evolving slowly for five years now, what would a change to RunUO entail?
So I'm left with a somewhat troubling thought: It sometimes occurs to me that the only reason I stay with POL right now is because it's what I've been using for five years. Considering the pace of development on POL right now, compared with that of RunUO, as well as the fact that they could cease RunUO development today, forever, and I'd still be able to update it myself; If I had to choose a NEW system for a fresh start today, I'd choose RunUO.
I'm fairly sure no one here really cares what emulator I use, and the fact is I don't have the time to 'redesign the wheel' right now anyway, so I'll likely just stick with what I have for some time. But at some point in the not-too-distant future, I'll be forced to make the decision on whether to stick with what I have, or just move on with something I can do on my own, without needing to wait for what will be done next.
I guess I'm mostly just concerned that it seems a bit iffy lately; It seems like things are so close with 096 in some ways, but then on the other hand, there still seem to be some fairly foundational things that just aren't quite there yet, and recent history isn't suggesting a fix will come anytime real soon. More than likely, a lot of the problem here would be with the testers (or lack thereof), not reporting things enough or properly... but it still seems there may be some troublesome stability issues.
Granted, I've not seen those issues myself on my own test 096; such as the crashes that have been being reported lately (some of which I'm fairly sure aren't the fault of the POL core to begin with)... but it just seems like that if 096 were so close to being ready, and if work was being done to finalize it for a release, that there would be more activity - and not just sporadic releases with Win and Linux versions coming out weeks apart.
In all likelihood, I WILL end up using POL 096, and I remain excited about that possibility, as it will finally enable us POL shard folks to use advanced features that users of RunUO have enjoyed for a good while now, with Realms and Packet Hooks. Though other really bothersome issues seem to remain, such as with tooltips/vendor listings, work has been done... but the pace has been slow. Again, maybe that's due more to failings of testers. But with an open-source project, *I* could have fixed that one myself a while ago, likely.
I'm talking in circles, but I guess I have a lot to let out
I've just loved using POL so long, and it's a tiny bit.... erm... I dunno; I feel like I'm having to decide to dump a long-time romantic partner, when I don't really want to. I love both closed- and open-source software. From Operating Systems to 'office' software, to web servers, I use whatever tool is right for the specific job I have at the moment. Both models have been proven to work very well, but both models have certain requirements for them to continue to work. Open Source requires organization to avoid turning into just chaos. Closed-Source requires that people have the time and energy to devote to a project, or to turn the project over to others when they cannot, as has happened in the past with similar things.Bleh... so, anyway; back to reading my "C# for C++ Dummies" book, I guess...
I will try not to comment on the open source issue because I think I made my point earlier. However, I do concur with Marilla on the slow progress of the POL 96 "official" release. I have waited for a long time to even attempt running a 96 shard in hopes that it would be officially released soon. Well, I got tired of waiting and decided to go forth with the distro scripts for 96 as my starting point rather than converting my current shard. To my dismay even the distro scripots were uncompileable. Now I understand there are going to be some errors but when I asked for help this is the answer I got from Austin:
I finally got a compileable version of the 96 distro scripts after searching through the 95 code and adding a couple of those includes. Now I am not saying I expected no errors. Well, I did expect them to compile but I was mistaken there I guess. But I would hope that when I ask for a little help rather than a "Oh well, I have lost interest and it seems that the rest of the team has as well", I would have gotten some help. The fix that I needed was simply the addition of the conflicts.inc file from the 95 scripts and it seems like that would have been a simple thing to point me to.
Now that I have vented my frustration, let me say I also considered RunUO. I however am not experienced with C in any flavour. My biggest concern was compatibility with the multiple maps and the ability to use a recent client with no complications. AFter looking at RunUO there were many things that caused me to decide to stay with POL, not the least of which were the way items are defined in RunUO and the fact that beside having to learn C# I would have to learn an entirely new command set as well as learning new tools. I do not like the fact that items are defined in scripts. But this isn't a thread dedicated to comparisons here so I'll forgo any more.
To all you C people I beg forgiveness but eScript is so much simpler than C. Now I am not afraid of complicity but if you expect new people that are unfamiliar with programming to pick up an emulator and try to learn the language simple is the best way to go.
I agree that the development of a "final" release seems long overdue but I am willing to wait a bit longer for the blessed event. I waited for POL 94 and then POL 95 so I have been around for a while.
I for one appreciate the hard work the developers give to POL. I do get frustrated at the slow pace and when I get answers like I quoted above but I also understand that the developers have their own lives to live.
I understand that many people think that making POL opensource would be the panacea to all the above problems and maybe it would. I am sure that there are many out there like Marilla who might be able to fix some of POL's problems. I know for certain that if all shard developers scripting in POL made their shard's scriptbase opensource it would probably speed the development of other shards. So maybe those calling for POL to be opensource are right. I tell you this though, that most of those same people would cry foul if they were asked to do the same with their scriptbase.
Oh crap!
I went and commented again on open source.
Oh well, so much for me keeping my word.
Hang in there folks. I am sure that once POL 96 is done it will be great and well worth the wait.
My only question is: Why do you have to make soooo many changes with each new release???
*smiles*
Anyway, I am sticking with POL as long as the developers can put up with my whining.
Now if the developers have lost interest in the distro scripts, the scripts that are supposed to be the "classroom" for those new to POL, then what does that say about the project itself.Well the deal is.. I kept a lot of old stuff because I was trying to build a new code base... I havn't had the motivation to do anything for months though.
A lot of stuff just got shifted around and redone and a lot of packages havnt been updated. MuadDib was going to do most the skills, but I think he lost interest and time too ... atleast he still works on the core though... I am just really out of it with this whole computer thing right now
I finally got a compileable version of the 96 distro scripts after searching through the 95 code and adding a couple of those includes. Now I am not saying I expected no errors. Well, I did expect them to compile but I was mistaken there I guess. But I would hope that when I ask for a little help rather than a "Oh well, I have lost interest and it seems that the rest of the team has as well", I would have gotten some help. The fix that I needed was simply the addition of the conflicts.inc file from the 95 scripts and it seems like that would have been a simple thing to point me to.
Now that I have vented my frustration, let me say I also considered RunUO. I however am not experienced with C in any flavour. My biggest concern was compatibility with the multiple maps and the ability to use a recent client with no complications. AFter looking at RunUO there were many things that caused me to decide to stay with POL, not the least of which were the way items are defined in RunUO and the fact that beside having to learn C# I would have to learn an entirely new command set as well as learning new tools. I do not like the fact that items are defined in scripts. But this isn't a thread dedicated to comparisons here so I'll forgo any more.
To all you C people I beg forgiveness but eScript is so much simpler than C. Now I am not afraid of complicity but if you expect new people that are unfamiliar with programming to pick up an emulator and try to learn the language simple is the best way to go.
I agree that the development of a "final" release seems long overdue but I am willing to wait a bit longer for the blessed event. I waited for POL 94 and then POL 95 so I have been around for a while.
I for one appreciate the hard work the developers give to POL. I do get frustrated at the slow pace and when I get answers like I quoted above but I also understand that the developers have their own lives to live.
I understand that many people think that making POL opensource would be the panacea to all the above problems and maybe it would. I am sure that there are many out there like Marilla who might be able to fix some of POL's problems. I know for certain that if all shard developers scripting in POL made their shard's scriptbase opensource it would probably speed the development of other shards. So maybe those calling for POL to be opensource are right. I tell you this though, that most of those same people would cry foul if they were asked to do the same with their scriptbase.
Oh crap!
I went and commented again on open source.
Oh well, so much for me keeping my word.
Hang in there folks. I am sure that once POL 96 is done it will be great and well worth the wait.
My only question is: Why do you have to make soooo many changes with each new release???
*smiles*
Anyway, I am sticking with POL as long as the developers can put up with my whining.
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Marilla
I think that's part of the 'problem' here; There's just so much that's new in 096, meaning there are a lot more things to fit together than might be typical. It seemed to grow in an odd way; though some features that were planned did get laid to the side in favor of getting it done (incremental saves and custom housing support in the core come to mind), there was still so much that is in there to the 'point of no return'.Yukiko wrote:However, I do concur with Marilla on the slow progress of the POL 96 "official" release. ... My only question is: Why do you have to make soooo many changes with each new release???
I don't want anything I said to lump me in with any 'naysayers'. I've been here a while, been using POL for a while, and don't plan to go anywhere. (Not that it matters to 'POL itself' whether I continue to use it, or not!) I hope any expressions I made came out properly as those of a supporter hoping to see this great project continue... and maybe even willing to do something here or there to help in some small way, beyond bitching on the forums
I program in java quite much and I'd love to have an object-oriented language to program with. The only place I've seen this is there where they use C#, but in that emulator customizing is -geees- a Hell. From what I've seen you really have to pick scripts and see what effect taking them away produces.. coming from POL my reaction was having this face: O_O
In other words, there are no take-over points in that emu where you can attach your customization... see the "Script Types" page in POL docs where you're told what script is triggered and when and so on? Well, there's nothing like that there.
So despite having a non-obj-oriented language (though very easy and fairly complete) I largely prefer POL.
Finally, eScript has some quite big minuses agains C#, one and for all is the handling of mutual exclusion between scripts (synchronized methods in java).. I personally use a way to ask to do a certain action "safely", but the difference from this thing being language-implemented is the capability of not having to specity that you want to access a certain resource in mutual exclusion from client-side, but only imposing this on "server"-side (the contrary of what I have to do now). But for the rest it's fine
In other words, there are no take-over points in that emu where you can attach your customization... see the "Script Types" page in POL docs where you're told what script is triggered and when and so on? Well, there's nothing like that there.
So despite having a non-obj-oriented language (though very easy and fairly complete) I largely prefer POL.
Finally, eScript has some quite big minuses agains C#, one and for all is the handling of mutual exclusion between scripts (synchronized methods in java).. I personally use a way to ask to do a certain action "safely", but the difference from this thing being language-implemented is the capability of not having to specity that you want to access a certain resource in mutual exclusion from client-side, but only imposing this on "server"-side (the contrary of what I have to do now). But for the rest it's fine
Marilla, I disagree with you. POL itself suffers everytime someone turns away from a great emulator. So you would be missed and would have an effect on the community and thereby affect POL as well.
Now the changes I was refering to were the basic directory structure changes in the POL Distro. I have been here since POL 92. Well, been scripting in eScript since then and it seems like with every major release there are changes to the directory structure which forces us to relearn where things are. I can understand the addition of new directories for new packages and the like but now we have commands moved to a package and now each package has its own include and config directory.
Yeah maybe I'm nit-picking but some of us are used to things being in a certain place and what with the major changes to the emulator and having to learn the new functions therein it can be overwhelming to have to relearn organization of the Distro as well.
I too am here to stay however. I will continue using POL for as long as I run a shard. If POL disappears I doubt I would go to a new emu. There truly aren't any that compare with POL.
Now the changes I was refering to were the basic directory structure changes in the POL Distro. I have been here since POL 92. Well, been scripting in eScript since then and it seems like with every major release there are changes to the directory structure which forces us to relearn where things are. I can understand the addition of new directories for new packages and the like but now we have commands moved to a package and now each package has its own include and config directory.
Yeah maybe I'm nit-picking but some of us are used to things being in a certain place and what with the major changes to the emulator and having to learn the new functions therein it can be overwhelming to have to relearn organization of the Distro as well.
I too am here to stay however. I will continue using POL for as long as I run a shard. If POL disappears I doubt I would go to a new emu. There truly aren't any that compare with POL.