RUNUO vs Pol

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littlewierdo
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RUNUO vs Pol

Post by littlewierdo » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:18 pm

Ok, just downloaded POL 99 and the latest distro and managed to get everything up and running (downloaded latest svn core and distro and compiled server core and compiled scripts).

So, I decided to create a new character on my freshly installed install and to my surprise, alot of things are not working that should be.

For example, dragging scrolls into spell book makes scroll disappear and the spell is not added to the book, or I cant mount any tamed mountable critters, or cant rename tamed animals. These are things I discovered within the first few minutes of creating a new character.

Then I decided to elevate my account to dev status and tried a few gm tricks.

Things like creating an npc mage vendor didnt work because surprise surprise, the mage vendor template is not even in the distro.

So, it is nice to see that POL is just as disorganized as it always has been!!

I have used POL since version 94 which was oh, Id say, 6+ years, fell away from it for a few years and came back to find it is a mess as usual.

Now, having looked at POL and compared it to RUNUO (your major competitor), I can see clearly why RUNUO is the most popular and most actively updated and developed UO emulator.

RunUO has at its core a functioning, basic world that is (optionally) prepopulated and has everything you need to just start playing the game.

Download the latest precompiled RUNUO v2.1 (just released June 1rst), double click the exe, setup the server stuff (IPs and ports) and players can immediately start playing without needing to script anything.

Now, compare that to POL. Im scratching my head at the number of bugs I am finding in the distro and the number of mistakes I am going to have to fix before this thing is even remotely close to a resemblance of even being an online MMO.

No spawns, half the scripts dont function correctly, mounts dont work, spell books dont work (drag a scroll into your spellbook - the scroll just disappears and the new spell is not added to the book), and Im not even sure about the housing system as I havent even gotten that far. Oh, forgot to mention, many gm commands dont function correctly or at all.

Now, I will say that I like the crafting menus for the few crafting skills I have been able to look at.

I propose that a small team be put together to get the distro up to snuff over the course of the next few months. This thing is a total mess and it needs some love and care put to it.

A new user should not have to search the forums to correct the issues with the distro, these need to be patched in and implemented. These scripts need to be rebuilt and included in the html download of the distro (in other words, new users should not have to use SVN to have a functioning distro) and a fully working and fully developed server that is relatively bug free.

**Added**

The serious lack of professionalism is also rather troubling. An NPC called a Gay Unicorn?? Really? Come on guys/gals, its pretty obvious you are taking little to no pride at all in your work on a potentially fantastic UO server which is polluted by silly antics, no organization, and no pride in what your potential product is...

xeon
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by xeon » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:09 am

I think that the potential of an emulator aren't in how much is easy to start a server with preconfigured scripts done by other. I think that it's value is more accurately described by how flexible is the emulator in giving you power to create the world you want.
And I think that POL in this is the best emulator available, without any disrespects to RunUO or the people which chose it.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by CWO » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:30 am

POL itself isn't really disorganized. The core itself is in great shape. The only thing that POL is missing is a distro and we all know that. But mostly anyone who has picked up the distro has put it aside either in favor of their actual shards that they are developing or real life. The core developers themselves don't bother with the distro and I don't think they should otherwise nothing would get done in the core either.

There are some script releases in these forums that people have converted to the newer cores but its hard to see POL having a complete distro again especially how fast the core is moving along and how much better its becoming. Most of us just upgrade our own shards to the newer cores.

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AsYlum
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by AsYlum » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:33 am

RunUO is really great if you know nothing about emulators/uo & programming. Just click & run. I'm using POL because it's 10 times easier to rewrite scripts and make every aspect of my server custom. RunUO by default mimics OSI servers.

Of course i can rewrite runuo script base and guess what? Then i'll end up with something similiar to POL w/o distro scripts :)

IMHO POL vs RunUO there's no good way to compare them. Two totally different applications used to achieve the same result - own UO server ;)

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:12 am

Let me start off by saying I love POL.

My frustration.
I know for me, I was able to take the working POL 0.94 Distro and use it as a base for building my shard. If all I had back in 2000 was a half completed set of scripts called the Distro then I doubt I would have stayed with POL. It was because I had a foundation to build upon that I was able to add things like custom ores/woods and religion tomes etc. to my shard. That was why the developers of POL had created the Distro way back when. They understood that people would need a starting place.

I have to agree with littlewierdo. If we want to attract people who are new to the realm of scripting there is a need for a working basic Distro, even if it's a converted 0.95 Distro scriptset. It would have been better to do that than to have what we have today. Don't get me wrong though. I think Austin added many fine things when he took on the task of completely redoing the Distro not the least of which are his truly beautiful gumps. However, to have it sit incomplete is a sad thing. It's like creating a new model car with a beautiful paint job but leaving off the wheels and engine.

I had hoped to be able to start over with a working "new style" 0.99 Distro and add in the customizations I had made on my shard like I had in the beginning with the 0.94 Distro. However, given the current condition of the Distro I have abandoned that idea.

I Love POL!
Now anyone who has read my "help" posts over the years knows I am at best a programmer of (maybe) average ability. I only know a couple of programming languages. I say this because I believe of the emulators that were there when I started and now includes RunUO, that POL is the easiest to learn and the most flexible to script in. Understand I make this statement based on other emulator users comments and without any first-hand knowledge of having scripted in any other emu myself. eScript is easy to learn. It is Pascal-like with a touch of C. I am partial to Pascal so it was not hard for me to get a grasp of it right away. Even one of my sons with no prior programming experience was able to script a use script for an item that displayed a gump with a list of items to choose from. You experienced scripters know how complicated gumps can be. So again I say, I love POL! That's why it's kind of painful to see it sitting here half-baked.

Anyway, I've said my piece.

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Austin
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Austin » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:11 pm

littlewierdo wrote:Ok, just downloaded POL 99 and the latest distro and managed to get everything up and running (downloaded latest svn core and distro and compiled server core and compiled scripts).
blah blah blah blah blah.
Oh this is a really good day... Ill just shoot from the hip since you clearly did all your research before posting.

Firstly I want to thank you for your second post here and making a huge contribution towards the community by reminding me that ...
Its assholes like you, that remind me.. there are assholes like you. Thanks! I almost forgot!

RunUO and POL do not compete - they're pretty symbiotic these days as the UO community is very small.
They have useful tools for other shards to use like Razor. POL puts out UO Fiddler and the packets guide which their community often uses.

I have not touched the distro in years because everyone simply said "Well I just prefer to start my own shard and do everything custom" no one ever claimed there was a value to the distro NOR did anyone ever actually demonstrate it had any value. Point in case - I created up until 2009 a very loose framework that any shard could be built around and no one uses it. No one has asked for SVN and continually made contributions towards something. We did get offers to yet again reinvent the wheel... its not worth the headache.

As for the gay unicorn AI... Well your lawyers contacted us and let us know the horrific grief and trauma you are facing. We will be sending you an apology letter as well as the entire amount of income POL has earned since the AI was created... a balance of $0.00 should be arriving at your door soon. The truth is that was created as a joke when someone was being annoying in IRC during the peak of oh so much progress in POL. Its sooo tragic when someone takes a hobby, and adds a little something funny to it to maintain interest.

Now I hope I still have your attention span because I suspect its significantly shorter than my dick - that is to say, you are already trying to write up some "Oh I feel so wronged, think of the children" crock of shit, fallacy riddled response... and hoping someone will care? But maybe you will be the chosen one ... spoken of in prophecy who will deliver unto us, completion, understanding.. and even a moment of zen.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by OWHorus » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:09 pm

I have to agree with Austin here...

We started with POL around 2002, and used the distro, which was very new and unfinished at this time. Yet - we had a running shard (TUS), and we wanted to have the same features and behavior as in TUS. So we needed 2 years to write our own scripts, then we switched to POL.
Needless to say, that in the meantime our shard has tons more features as we had at 2004, since POL is that much more flexible and a lot was done to the core (we started with an 08x version, I think).

I often used the distro as an example, but at this time neither our script structure nor our scripts look anything like the distro. We only use two old items (day/night system, heavily changed, and the area spawner, changed too), from the old distro, the rest is our work.

If RunUO gives the user a ready made world with ready made NPCs, this is fine. But you cannot make a shard with this alone. Your shard needs to have own ideas - and to script this you will need time. And in the end most of your scripts, be it RunUO or POL, will be your own work.

Yet I do not think, that the distro is useless. It is an example and a framework, and if you have done your homework and know about POL scripting, then it will cost you a day maximum to make the necessary changes for 0.99.

To define items and NPCs - will you really take, what is ready made? Will you want to run a shard like an official OSI shard? Or do you have your own ideas? What help is it, when all htings, like strength of NPCs or item prices, and so on are predefined? I think if one has a shard concept, he will change these things - and then he can do them himself also.

So you can start with the POL distro and the POL core. But there will be a lot of work to be done to make your own original shard. And - I am sure - this is the case with RunUO too.

And being impolite to people who spent a lot of time with the distro is unwise and not very nice.

I would have been much more impressed with the original posters opinion, if he had offered to help. And not made demands from people, who do something for the community...

OWHorus

littlewierdo
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by littlewierdo » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:27 am

Austin wrote:
littlewierdo wrote:Ok, just downloaded POL 99 and the latest distro and managed to get everything up and running (downloaded latest svn core and distro and compiled server core and compiled scripts).
blah blah blah blah blah.
Oh this is a really good day... Ill just shoot from the hip since you clearly did all your research before posting.

Firstly I want to thank you for your second post here and making a huge contribution towards the community by reminding me that ...
Its assholes like you, that remind me.. there are assholes like you. Thanks! I almost forgot!

RunUO and POL do not compete - they're pretty symbiotic these days as the UO community is very small.
They have useful tools for other shards to use like Razor. POL puts out UO Fiddler and the packets guide which their community often uses.

I have not touched the distro in years because everyone simply said "Well I just prefer to start my own shard and do everything custom" no one ever claimed there was a value to the distro NOR did anyone ever actually demonstrate it had any value. Point in case - I created up until 2009 a very loose framework that any shard could be built around and no one uses it. No one has asked for SVN and continually made contributions towards something. We did get offers to yet again reinvent the wheel... its not worth the headache.

As for the gay unicorn AI... Well your lawyers contacted us and let us know the horrific grief and trauma you are facing. We will be sending you an apology letter as well as the entire amount of income POL has earned since the AI was created... a balance of $0.00 should be arriving at your door soon. The truth is that was created as a joke when someone was being annoying in IRC during the peak of oh so much progress in POL. Its sooo tragic when someone takes a hobby, and adds a little something funny to it to maintain interest.

Now I hope I still have your attention span because I suspect its significantly shorter than my dick - that is to say, you are already trying to write up some "Oh I feel so wronged, think of the children" crock of shit, fallacy riddled response... and hoping someone will care? But maybe you will be the chosen one ... spoken of in prophecy who will deliver unto us, completion, understanding.. and even a moment of zen.
Wow, you really expect me to respond to this?

Lets start at the top.

"Ill just shoot from the hip since you clearly did all your research before posting."

Actually, I have played more with Pol than RunUO. I have been around off and on in the Ultima world since Journey's End, Im pretty familiar with what Pol 'used' to be and what it currently is. So yea, Ive done enough research to make the statement I did. But more on this later, I need to get to the part where I am somehow an asshole...

"Firstly I want to thank you for your second post here and making a huge contribution towards the community by reminding me that ... Its a**holes like you, that remind me.. there are a**holes like you. Thanks! I almost forgot!"


Actually, I have made contributions to the Pol community, just not thru the forums. I have helped several people with their server and even had them commit code to the distro on more than a few occasions because I either found a bug, fixed a bug, or helped to fix the bug. I am not a master with escripting. I have fixed a few things and contributed in an indirect way.

RunUO and POL do not compete - they're pretty symbiotic these days as the UO community is very small.
They have useful tools for other shards to use like Razor. POL puts out UO Fiddler and the packets guide which their community often uses.


Oh, but they do. They are two products that do exactly the same thing using different means to get there. Sure they 'borrow' ideas, code, and themes but the fact is, if you want an ultima server, you pick either Runuo or Pol. This makes them competitors. Same thing with Libre Office vs Open Office. Both open source, both share alot of code, but they both are competitors.

I have not touched the distro in years because everyone simply said "Well I just prefer to start my own shard and do everything custom" no one ever claimed there was a value to the distro NOR did anyone ever actually demonstrate it had any value. Point in case - I created up until 2009 a very loose framework that any shard could be built around and no one uses it. No one has asked for SVN and continually made contributions towards something. We did get offers to yet again reinvent the wheel... its not worth the headache.


I dont want this taken out of context but I have to break this up a bit, this is a gold mine into your thought process and why the distro is the way it is.

I have not touched the distro in years because everyone simply said "Well I just prefer to start my own shard and do everything custom"

Well, its pretty evident it hasnt been touched "in years". Anything else Captain Obvious? (sorry, a little cheap shot, I dont like being called an asshole)

no one ever claimed there was a value to the distro NOR did anyone ever actually demonstrate it had any value.

If there is no value in the distro, why provide it? Get rid of it and tell people to just use a precompiled shard, cross their fingers and hope that everything works correctly when it compiles and fires up - cause we all know how well that might go - as well as trying to compile the distro might go.

The distro DOES have value, this is the bases on which EVERY server runs its code. Granted, the distro has changed from what it used to be, but I know for a fact that the ever so popular Journey's End was based on the original distro. Yes, Sig added alot of his own code. But, as an example, his fletching script worked EXACTLY like the distro used to work - skill gains were only obtained off making arrows and it had the same gump. His fletching script never changed, the only addition that was made is wood types.

The distro has additional value, it shows new people to scripting how to get started. If it is commented well, actually compiles, and here is the kicker, the server actually works and runs everything like it is supposed to, its a jumping point for people letting their imagination go wild. The distro is the basis, the foundation if you were from that jumping point.

Point in case - I created up until 2009 a very loose framework that any shard could be built around and no one uses it.

Wow, do you really want me to explain to you why no one uses it? I mean, if you dont know the answer to this, well, crap, Im done here, there is nothing more I can say. I mean, really, this is sort of the point of why I am posting this in the first place? Here, let me spell it out for you.

NO ONE USES IT BECAUSE IT IS FULL OF BUGS!!

Ok, now, back to being pleasant (Im still not happy about being called an asshole).

No one has asked for SVN and continually made contributions towards something. We did get offers to yet again reinvent the wheel... its not worth the headache.

I offered in my limited capacity to work on it and even suggested that maybe a small team might spend a month to go thru and just work on this to fix it up and put some attention to it but you are so quick on the defensive, you must have missed it.

As for it not being worth the headache, again I ask, why provide it at all? Obviously, the distro is nothing more than a piece of used toilet paper that should be dispensed in your mind and is wasting server space.

"As for the gay unicorn AI... Well your lawyers contacted us and let us know the horrific grief and trauma you are facing. We will be sending you an apology letter as well as the entire amount of income POL has earned since the AI was created... a balance of $0.00 should be arriving at your door soon."


Now who is being an asshole??

The truth is that was created as a joke when someone was being annoying in IRC during the peak of oh so much progress in POL. Its sooo tragic when someone takes a hobby, and adds a little something funny to it to maintain interest.

Yea, no. Humor is one thing, I expected a bit of professionalism. But given your response to me, its pretty clear this is a word NOT in your vocabulary (hey, if you didnt figure it out yet, I STILL dont appreciate being called an asshole).

Now I hope I still have your attention span because I suspect its significantly shorter than my dick - that is to say, you are already trying to write up some "Oh I feel so wronged, think of the children" crock of shit, fallacy riddled response... and hoping someone will care? But maybe you will be the chosen one ... spoken of in prophecy who will deliver unto us, completion, understanding.. and even a moment of zen.

Wow, ok. Hey, remember that word professionalism? Yea, well, let me tell you what it is NOT...(see above bolded text).

I want to have some fun breaking this last paragraph down, maybe I will understand it a bit better.

Now I hope I still have your attention span because I suspect its significantly shorter than my dick

Hmm. Well, the problem here is, you are making a physical measurement (your...umm...member) and trying to compare it to something that is time based (my attention span). Now, back to Math 101, this is called a comparison. Comparisons cannot be made with two different types of measurements unless you can convert different said measurements to the same type of measurement, which in this case, my attention span is NOT measurable.

that is to say, you are already trying to write up some "Oh I feel so wronged, think of the children" crock of shit, fallacy riddled response...

Now, this was my favorite sentence in the entire paragraph. You go from making a comparison of my attention span to state in the second part of this sentence that you 'really meant to say' that I didnt bother reading all of the post and that I am writing up a response that I dont even know where to begin that would have anything to do with the topic at hand.

"Oh I feel so wronged".

Right, well, that might be how this whole thing is read as being, it isnt really the intention however. I expect a certain level of maturity with people I talk to. Go figure, I expect to be treated like a person, not someone's doormat, even online in a forum.

"think of the children"

Well, hmm. Not sure what children have to do with this...unless you are calling new people to Pol 'children', in which case, Id have to say, this is quite a stretch. I really had to think of where you might be coming from with this but I am still a bit unsure.

fallacy riddled response... and hoping someone will care?

Well, actually, since you didnt really respond with any facts and spent all your time insulting me without really making any clear arguments one way or the other, yea, I suppose this is a response. And yea, Im hoping someone will care - if I didnt, why bother posting in the first place?

But maybe you will be the chosen one ... spoken of in prophecy who will deliver unto us, completion, understanding.. and even a moment of zen.

Unfortunately, I am not Neo, God, Buddha, Mohammed, the Tree of Life, Mother Earth, or whatever creator you choose to worship. Which prophecies are you reading? Really, are you sure you arent insane? Because Im really starting to get that picture...

Oh, and there aint no way in hell Im bringing a moment of zen. Ask those that know me, they will tell you.

Now that I have wasted so much time on your pitiful response, I would like to put this out there here and now.

We are all human beings here. If you cant treat someone as such, dont bother responding (this includes you Austin - I could care less about your position here - this does NOT give you the right to be a dick). We all expect to be treated as human beings, not a doormat or someone's pet. This includes name calling, talking down, publicly humiliating, etc.

To the rest, I will respond below.
Last edited by littlewierdo on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

littlewierdo
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by littlewierdo » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:46 am

OWHorus wrote:I have to agree with Austin here...

We started with POL around 2002, and used the distro, which was very new and unfinished at this time. Yet - we had a running shard (TUS), and we wanted to have the same features and behavior as in TUS. So we needed 2 years to write our own scripts, then we switched to POL.
Needless to say, that in the meantime our shard has tons more features as we had at 2004, since POL is that much more flexible and a lot was done to the core (we started with an 08x version, I think).

I often used the distro as an example, but at this time neither our script structure nor our scripts look anything like the distro. We only use two old items (day/night system, heavily changed, and the area spawner, changed too), from the old distro, the rest is our work.

If RunUO gives the user a ready made world with ready made NPCs, this is fine. But you cannot make a shard with this alone. Your shard needs to have own ideas - and to script this you will need time. And in the end most of your scripts, be it RunUO or POL, will be your own work.

Yet I do not think, that the distro is useless. It is an example and a framework, and if you have done your homework and know about POL scripting, then it will cost you a day maximum to make the necessary changes for 0.99.

To define items and NPCs - will you really take, what is ready made? Will you want to run a shard like an official OSI shard? Or do you have your own ideas? What help is it, when all htings, like strength of NPCs or item prices, and so on are predefined? I think if one has a shard concept, he will change these things - and then he can do them himself also.

So you can start with the POL distro and the POL core. But there will be a lot of work to be done to make your own original shard. And - I am sure - this is the case with RunUO too.

And being impolite to people who spent a lot of time with the distro is unwise and not very nice.

I would have been much more impressed with the original posters opinion, if he had offered to help. And not made demands from people, who do something for the community...

OWHorus
We started with POL around 2002, and used the distro, which was very new and unfinished at this time. Yet - we had a running shard (TUS), and we wanted to have the same features and behavior as in TUS. So we needed 2 years to write our own scripts, then we switched to POL.
Needless to say, that in the meantime our shard has tons more features as we had at 2004, since POL is that much more flexible and a lot was done to the core (we started with an 08x version, I think).


I agree, Pol has gotten more feature rich.

I often used the distro as an example, but at this time neither our script structure nor our scripts look anything like the distro. We only use two old items (day/night system, heavily changed, and the area spawner, changed too), from the old distro, the rest is our work.


I think this is where people are misunderstanding me, I dont think it all that important to have a bunch of features in the distro, just a few of ore types, a few wood types, and everything should function. My complaint is, right now, many, many things are broken in the distro and do not even function as they should.

The distro is going to be the base for anyone creating a new server. This is going to be their launching point. So, its great that already established shards have a working code base. Fantastic for you, but wow, what a turn off for anyone new to Pol.

If RunUO gives the user a ready made world with ready made NPCs, this is fine. But you cannot make a shard with this alone. Your shard needs to have own ideas - and to script this you will need time. And in the end most of your scripts, be it RunUO or POL, will be your own work.

Agreed. But a new user should not be expected to have to fix 'official code (see my last conclusion paragraph for more on this).

Yet I do not think, that the distro is useless. It is an example and a framework, and if you have done your homework and know about POL scripting, then it will cost you a day maximum to make the necessary changes for 0.99.

You make my exact point (I think without even realizing it) - "if you have done your homework and know about POL scripting". I am not referring to people who have been using Pol for years, Im talking about new users.

As to a 'day maximum', well, to a new user, he/she is going to spend alot of time (probably more than a day) just to figure out how to fix everything.

To define items and NPCs - will you really take, what is ready made? Will you want to run a shard like an official OSI shard? Or do you have your own ideas? What help is it, when all htings, like strength of NPCs or item prices, and so on are predefined? I think if one has a shard concept, he will change these things - and then he can do them himself also.

So you can start with the POL distro and the POL core. But there will be a lot of work to be done to make your own original shard. And - I am sure - this is the case with RunUO too.


Again, I totally agree. But we are talking about people that will have to spend time fixing things just to have everything barely function (since that seems to be the opinion of the distro).

And being impolite to people who spent a lot of time with the distro is unwise and not very nice.

I would have been much more impressed with the original posters opinion, if he had offered to help. And not made demands from people, who do something for the community...


Who recently has spent any time with the distro? The last three or four commits I see are from a year ago all from kiko (with, surprise surprise, the lumberjacking fix recently put up by kiko).

I did offer to help. What I was more suggesting is that a small team of people commit a small amount of time to working on the distro and getting it functioning. Sure, I can do this myself I suppose, but many hands make light work.
Last edited by littlewierdo on Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by littlewierdo » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:04 am

So, let me ask a question...

How many of you would use a product like, oh... Linux or Open Office if say, Linux simply error'd out when you tried to copy a file, rename a file, or any other mundane routine file operation you might use? How about Open Office? What if Open Office had the little 'Bold' icon (for bolding text) but when you click on it, it didnt do anything?

This is the current state of Pol.

I feel compelled to make the distinction, I am not talking about people with their own servers already running with their own code base, I am talking about new people TOMORROW that stumble into this 'Pol' thing for whatever reason and manage to get it running only to discover that 25% of everything that should work, is broken.

Im sorry but, I know how people think. First impressions are everything and while it may not seem like a big deal to you folks who have been doing this awhile, the very first time you get Pol up and running and are able to connect to it, its a decent amount of time learning how to do this. Then to log in for the first time to your own server and have BASIC things not working as they should be, well, that is going to be a turn off to alot of people.

This weekend, Ill be setting up the rest of POL and will likely be working on the distro myself. I cant but fix maybe one or two bugs a week (if even that) due to my crazy work schedule during the early week. I still havent even gotten SVN setup for committing code.

I just wish I wasnt the only one next to Kiko that actually gives a damn about having a working code base.

So tonight, while still trying to get everything up and running, I hit up your front page to grab the latest distro and look what I found? A description of what the distro 'should' be...

Taken right off your front page:

"Distro Packs are collections of scripts used to create the common base for a normal UO Shard in POL. Distro's are worked on by members of the POL community as well as the POL development team.

These script-bases are the best way to get a shard up and running fast, and provide a great start for building your own custom shard."


Now, you tell me, is the distro really "the best way to get a shard up and running fast, and provide a great start for building your own custom shard"?

From the responses I am hearing, I think it is 'no'...

Voicer
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Voicer » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:01 am

i doubt that new people would arrive and get POL. Even if it'll have new great bug-free POL099 distro. UO is a drowning ship and all that was left is the shards that ALREADY has their own scripts and only need core changes (and that's where the POl team is right now, isn't it?)

I think there is no real demand for new POL servers, and the community is much more smaller than years ago. Take a look when the last time someone posted a custom script, how many of the scripts are out there...

It's not ok from Austin to call you an asshole, but it's also not ok that you are requesting and questioning their FREE work with DYING community.

You want a good Distro? Stop complaining and answer to POL team requests, they asked for it and everyone was (and probably still is) able to help.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:17 am

I don't have a lot of time to post my thoughts but I wanted to say a few things before I head off to bed.

I realize this discussion is a sore spot for Austin and for good reason I think because he put a ton of hours into the Distro and his intention was that we, the community, would help to finish it and we basically didn't do much to help. Clearly, as I have said before, everyone was busy with their own servers trying to keep-up with all the new features being added to the Core and probably either didn't want to take time or didn't have the time to contribute. Some of us volunteered and some of those volunteers actually contributed a little, some more than others. However, the momentum for the Distro didn't last and its development stalled. I have to say though that I was surprised at your response Austin. I guess you took Littlewierdo's post personally. I know he didn't intend it as an attack against you. He's just frustrated, as am I, that virtually no one (besides you Austin) seems to want to give a little time to complete your project.

I say the Distro is important. I remember asking MaudDib a long time ago why the Distro didn't have any custom wood or ore. He told me that the intention of the POL Distro was to provide a basic functioning UO server to give new people a place to start and build upon. I think Austin even said something similar once as well. For those who say "well, no one is going to use the Distro as a starting place and actually add to the scripts to build a shard." I say wrong!!! I know of atleast three shards, mine included, that were built upon the POL Distro. Journey's End was built on the 0.92 Distro and probably started back at 0.89. LeAvarius (not sure about the spelling) used to be based on POL Distro (not sure which version) but they switched to "a different emulator" for whatever reason back between POL 0.95 and 0.96. There are more but those are the ones I know for sure.

Anyway, I'm willing to post patches or if Austin wants to give me Commit privileges to the SVN. I'll post fixes and create NPCDesc files for NPCs. I can't promise how fast I'll be but I'll work on it. Sorry Austin but I don't remember you making a general call for people who wanted Commit status. All I knew was what MaudDib posted about submitting patches. I'd have asked a long time ago if I thought I had a chance. I probably wouldn't be any help on the Core because I don't know C but I can script at a fair level and if you want to I would make commits to the Distro SVN.

Anyway, I'm done for now. It's time for me to go beddy bye. : )

Oh and yes, I can testify to the fact that Littlewierdo would not be the person to expect to bring zen to a discussion, topic or party; Ouzo or beer maybe but definitely NOT zen. : ) : )

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:53 am

Voicer wrote:
i doubt that new people would arrive and get POL. Even if it'll have new great bug-free POL099 distro. UO is a drowning ship and all that was left is the shards that ALREADY has their own scripts and only need core changes (and that's where the POl team is right now, isn't it?)

I think there is no real demand for new POL servers, and the community is much more smaller than years ago. Take a look when the last time someone posted a custom script, how many of the scripts are out there...

It's not ok from Austin to call you an asshole, but it's also not ok that you are requesting and questioning their FREE work with DYING community.
No. New people won't arrive and get POL. I'll explain why.

The point that I am trying to make Voicer is that the devs or community or whomever used to provide a working Distro back prior to POL 0.96. Then after 0.96 the momentum switched to Core and the Distro was left in the dust. I know Austin put a lot of foundational work into what is called the current Distro and for that I thank him. You say that POL is dying. Why? Is it because UO is dying? I don't think so. I just looked at another emulator's forums and the oldest post on their forums is March 13, 2011. Most of the posts are very recent. The oldest post on our (POL) forums is April 10, 2009. One has to ask why that is?

Understand, I am not blaming anyone. I love POL! My comments are because it looks like POL IS dying.

If so why? It's surely not the Core. It's humming along very nicely. Many great functions have been added and bugs have been fixed. And since it went open source anyone can post patches and fixes to improve it even more. Heck we are almost at POL 1.00. If it were up to me I'd say the Core version should be 1.00 already. It's not the eScript and POL function docs. Since Racakac wrote the POL 0.95 docs the devs have been keeping them updated pretty well. It's not the support of the community. Post a problem and someone will reply pretty quick even though the user base is way down. Is it the website? Nope. It's not flashy and filled with glitz. It doesn't need to be. I like it. It's functional and not cluttered with junk.

I can think of only two things. One, there is not quick and easy setup script or executable for installing and configuring POL. That is an important thing but I don't see that as a major issue. So that leaves the second thing, there is no basic, fully functioning shard/server that someone new to programming and/or running a server can compile and run and have a working, albeit simple, shard ready to play with and learn from.

I don't mean to upset anyone. If this does then I apologize. I care about this damn thing called POL and I'd like to see more new people starting servers.

Now I am really going to go to bed. I think I've said all that I can without repeating myself again.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:19 pm

*notices a lot of POL Distro SVN updates coming-in*

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Austin
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Austin » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:31 pm

To put this to rest... Edwards has stepped up and volunteered his shard to be the distro base - I have given him SVN write access. This is why you are seeing SVN updates.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:00 pm

Thank you Austin. I'm sorry if my or Littlewierdo's comments caused you any grief. I know you've given years to POL and it is a thankless job usually. It was never our intent to make you feel like we were attacking you. LW rarely posts but both he and I know the effort you've poured into POL. Things probably could have been phrased differently on our part but as you know sometimes frustration loosens the tongue, or in this case the fingers.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by runtest » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:54 pm

Holy smokes, Austin posted. Hey man, how are the Heli's?

I just need to drop my 2 cents in.

PoL by far is the:

Least Memory Intensive
Least Redundant (Script Wise)
Most Enjoyable
Most Artistic
Un-Appreciated
Long Lived

Emulator to date. I am WELL verse in both RUNUO and POL. I prefer POL. On the other hand. I appreciate ANYONE that dedicates there time and money into keeping UO alive. Without these Emulator, Tools and Coders UO would be DEAD. Even EA has come to accept this.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by littlewierdo » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:59 am

Much appreciated on the distro upload, havent had a chance to play with it yet but rest assured I will soon (been busy with a few other things lately).

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*Edwards
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by *Edwards » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:46 pm

Please,

Add a "Distro Development" section where people can submit bugs & suggestions.

I'd like to know more about what people are requesting for the distro. At the moment, I assume that the type of server currently developed ( zulu style ) is a winning key. But I know it's not that easy to figure out how things work in-game since it's not OSI nor exp style.

I don't mind about re-scripting some part of it, nor removing/adding new functions to the distro. It is simply intended to be a completed and working version of POL distro release for the futur. I need feedbacks to know what to do next. Above all, I hope it helps. Without any big knowledge this is how I can contribute myself.

So please add a section for previous and current distro development.

phao
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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by phao » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:24 am

Ahhhhhhh!!! Too much to read.

All I say is that the best shards I've seen are in POL, not RunUO (even the few OSI like I've seen in POL, T2A ones).

I've seen you telling some lies here. Bad bad you!
How many of you would use a product like, oh... Linux or Open Office if say, Linux simply error'd out when you tried to copy a file, rename a file, or any other mundane routine file operation you might use? How about Open Office? What if Open Office had the little 'Bold' icon (for bolding text) but when you click on it, it didnt do anything?

This is the current state of Pol.
LIE! Do not confuse POL with its official distro.

I've created my own scripts for a long time now, and I don't remember finding a bug. And I've created many different systems.
I feel compelled to make the distinction, I am not talking about people with their own servers already running with their own code base, I am talking about new people TOMORROW that stumble into this 'Pol' thing for whatever reason and manage to get it running only to discover that 25% of everything that should work, is broken.
Peoplo who want a OSI like distro should use RunUO IMO. And pretty much everyone who uses POL want custom systems. So, worrying about people who will come here tomorrow and blah blah blah seeking something OSI like is just a waste of time. People who use POL are more interested in CORE changes to make it easier to make everything more customizable, more easily.

By the way, that is why I share the same opinion that Austin has that POL and RunUO do not compete. They offer different things. Go customize something on RunUO, and then try to customize the same thing here on POL. Check out which is the easiest, and better.

Some people here wanna just ignore whatever system OSI has, and make their own ones. That is: creating new skills, a different party system, experience/levels, classes, races, creating new spells.

I had some calendar system that would affect the world based on the time of the year.

Go create a quest on RunUO the way you want.

It's just too much work if you compare it with POL. POL is just easier to make this kind of stuff.

I don't quite remember how RunUO code was, but it was somewhat full of co-dependencies, which made it hard to separate your own custom code from the rest of the code.
Im sorry but, I know how people think. First impressions are everything and while it may not seem like a big deal to you folks who have been doing this awhile, the very first time you get Pol up and running and are able to connect to it, its a decent amount of time learning how to do this. Then to log in for the first time to your own server and have BASIC things not working as they should be, well, that is going to be a turn off to alot of people.
I agree with you. First impressions are important. That is why I use POL by the way.
So tonight, while still trying to get everything up and running, I hit up your front page to grab the latest distro and look what I found? A description of what the distro 'should' be...

Taken right off your front page:

"Distro Packs are collections of scripts used to create the common base for a normal UO Shard in POL. Distro's are worked on by members of the POL community as well as the POL development team.

These script-bases are the best way to get a shard up and running fast, and provide a great start for building your own custom shard."

Now, you tell me, is the distro really "the best way to get a shard up and running fast, and provide a great start for building your own custom shard"?

From the responses I am hearing, I think it is 'no'...
If you do not use the distro and make everything on your own, instead of using the distro and only make what isn't there, then yes, you'll take much more time to get your shard running. So, shame on you, another lie you're telling that using the distro isn't the best way to get your shard running. If you use the distro, all you have to do is fix some bugs, and implement some stuff that isn't there.

There are other script bases out there that may be better than the distro offered here in this web site, but they're not official. So, between doing everything from scratch and using the distro, you're probably better off with the distro.

By the way, read the main page on http://www.polserver.com.

And, if you want a complete OSI like script base, go use RunUO (not joking, and sorry POL people).

If you're not satisfied with anything you haver currently on UO server software, make one on your own. POL is open source now. You can use its code and go from there.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:13 pm

This is a moot point now that Edwards has posted his shard to the Distro. So now we have a working Distro. I will say this one last time in response to Phao; newbies cannot be expected to use or work with something that doesn't work. Yeah, for all those who have previous experience with C, Pascal, or <insert your favourite programming language here> starting from scratch given the eScript guide and POL docs is just fine but for someone brabd new to scripting/programming a working example that you can tinker with is essential. And to just say "Oh well go use RunUO if you want an OSI shard" is not any help at all. Frankly I never wanted an OSI shard when I came to POL (pre-POL 0.94) but I got what was provided back then, a working, albeit very basic, shard. That was just fine for me because it was atleast working! That wasn't the case, for whatever reason, for the post 0.95 Distros. Thankfully now we once again have a working Distro.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by gundamwing84 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:10 pm

lol thought id get my 2 cents in,

runuo vs POL. seriously? have you not noticed that every single runuo shard is the exact same?? (no offense to runuo), runuo has gotten to the point that its so easy to create a shard, that you dont have to put any effort in or even consider making it custom.

POL is a fully customizable emulator, and if you had bothered to notice POL doesnt support script sets such as "asgard", "WOD", "Zulu Hotel" (which are all player/consumer supported), etc. they have their own fully working release which is a core with basic files needed to run a shard.

from what i can see, POL is all about giving people an opportunity to create a shard in the way that they see Ultima Online should be. if you want a fully working shard that you dont have to put any effort into, then go elsewhere.

is what i thought when i read this post :)

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Yukiko » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:20 am

I agree with you Gundam. POL in its basic form has always been a very simple yet fully functional, in the very basic sense, shard. For example, you could download POL 0.95, compile the scripts and have a fully populated and operational shard. You didn't have the fancy custom logs and special ore types but it all worked. My only bone of contention was with us, the community, who let Austin and the other developers down by not helping to get a basic, functional Distro for the post-POL 0.96 core.

I have always said POL is FAR AND AWAY SUPERIOR to ANY other emulator around. Hell, just the ability to add, and script using, Custom Properties (CProps) to objects alone makes POL very versatile. Somewhere along the way I have been misunderstood and now I'm assumed to be some ungrateful idiot who can't script past my nose. Well, I am not! I am grateful to Eric, MaudDib, Austin, Birdie, Mythril, Doc, Sigismund, Bishop and anyone else I may have forgotten. Thank you for giving us POL. Oh and yes, I can script beyond my nose; maybe even as far as my chin or even my neck.

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by gundamwing84 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:06 am

yukiko i know that you can script, you've helped me alot along the way to getting where i am now, unfortunately i can only script a little bit, but i am getting alot better by writing simple "practice" scripts :) dont believe what others say, they are just jealous of your ability to script to your chin! (haha :) )

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Re: RUNUO vs Pol

Post by Polytropon » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:41 am

Well, I have about 3 posts but I've been reading the forum and working for a couple of years in my shard. Since I've been using your creation, I guess I could spare some words.

First: I love pol and I'm really grateful for all the work you've done. Sharing it is a great act of generosity and it gives me some kind of hope in mankind.

Second: The distro may be incomplete, but by studying it was how I learned to script. After all, if I want a shard I have to complete it. I wish some of our scripts were useful to add to a distro, but they are kind of...esoteric. Maybe if I have the time I might try to make something useful for the distro and stop being a total parasite. Should be a duty, as a user. As Yukiko said, the distro could be easily done by the community (which has lots of functional shards) with no big effort.

Third: I'm no programmer and learned how to script. And I think the thing that made it possible is the POL language. It's intuitive and the core functions are simple and direct, yet versatile. That is the greatest favour to the "newbies": not a one-button-ready shard, but a language that a simple human can understand and then, at his own speed, move to more complex aspects. After that, a Distro is a luxury. But, as the saying goes: "I give my hand, you take my arm".


Anyway, thanks again. And don´t mess with the gay unicorn. And -of course- sorry for my english.

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