There I said it!

Ahhh... I feel so much better now.

death to the races! death to those idiocy tendancies to add more races! death to all that is NOT original/t2a uo! omg omg, KILL THE POSERS AND STEAL THIER BEER!

*sends an army of penguins to swipe the beer, burn the women, rape the treasure, and do other unspeakables to the dodo bird*

Umm... t2a isn't really part of the original Ultima, either... so burn it too, please?

And just as long as you don't rape the beer. That's just... wrong!

ultima... online...... up to t2a (t2a was before factions, realms, etc, back in the good ole' days)

I'd also like to state that Ninjas are really gay.

Samurai are ok because they are historical. Although limits should be imposed when employing them.

Ninjas however are gay.

really gay.

What is a faction anyway except a misspelled mathematical term?

I don't hate elves but I think they are over-rated.

And is there really an art of Ninjitsu? That really sounds hokey.

While on the topic of races/classes that we dislike I would like to add vampires and drow.

Both are a royal pain to support in most script sets I have looked at.

"Ninjitsu" for the most part is a modern invention. One which really gained momentum in the 1980's. There is no historical evidence that any art/school of ninjitsu existed during Japan's Fuedal period. The only account of stealth tactics is of Samurai going out on night raids, which was a very underhanded and frowned upon tactic during the period. These accounts usually describe Samurai warriors adorning "night clothing" and small blades.

There are no real Ninja Ryu. Ryu are scrolls outlining a school of fighting, and are part of Samurai lineage. Handed down from father to son.

Most of the weapons associated with "Ninjas" are also myths. Like the Ninja-to (sword). There was no such thing as a straight katana. Katanas curve naturaly during the tempering process, and to achieve a straight blade is not only purposeless but very very difficult for a single edged sword. The only thing close to a straight katana that was ever found are merchant blades, which were katanas that were cut at the tang as by law merchants could not carry a full length blade.

References are far to numerous to list but a good place to learn more about Fuedal Japan and swords in general is Sword Forum -

http://www.swordforum.com/

And besides that they're gay.



I have a simple formula that I like to follow. The fantasy (or more appropriately, "lore") shall never surpass the medieval (history) and must be no more then %20 ( +/- .10) of the whole.

I'm often left wondering why many games today bother to include the medieval element at all as many of these games are so fantastic you have to ask, what does a world of stone and iron lend them at all?!?! Why bother?!?!

Personaly, I need reference points. I don't see the meaning of pure fantasy. If I want fantastical, I'll read my collection of retro Analog mags... well... even many of those stories have a reference point... scientificaly...

Datus, I concur with almost all of what you say.

I am all for more reality and less to the fantastic. Case in point: There is a shard that allows musicians (bards) to mark a musical instrument to a location and then use it like a recall rune. That is too far from the "realism" of music for me. I have no problem with music having effects over creatures. After all we all know how music can set the mood in a movie or play and how some music makes us want to get up and dance and some makes us want to relax. However using it to recall is too fantastic.

Please don't misunderstand me. I believe there can be fantasy but it should ne a shadow of the reality. Like certain metals having certain properties. We know that in real life iron is magnetic, uranium is hazardous, etc.

However, on the subject of Vampires and, if I may Were-creatures, I have no problem with those as they are "legendary". Never scripted vampires so I cab't speak to that issue. I don't know about Drow. I've never heard of them in legend but then again I am not a very well read person when it comes to legends.

I think people play whatever they think is fun.

T2A and before for life.

Discussion was split into http://forums.polserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=964

I absolutely must protest this blatent disregard for the history of the samurai, Ninja's play an important role in the history of the samurai, In feudle japan commoners where not allowed to carry weapons unlike the samurai, these ninja where actualy farmers who disguised there weapons as tools to tend there fields this is where weapons like the karma, and the sythe where born, and indeed the farsity of television, the ninja was afraid of samurais, they had supperior weapons and training, tokugowa was overtaxing the poor farmers this lead them to strike back through assassination. Youre also Very wrong about there not being a straght katana, The sword smiths orignaly made straght katanas, but they had noticed that so many soldiers where comming back with swords that where broken in half that they devised a way to strengthen the katana, thus the distinct curve shaped blade was born. The straght edge blades where vastly inferior to the curved katanas, however they did indeed exsist.

Another thing your wrong about is the curve shape during the tenpering process, As a bladesmith ive experence with shaping a katana, the distinct curve is done through pounding the metal at a certain point, and infact tenpering has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the blade, it has to do with strengthing the edge, when heated to the proper tempiture of nonmagnetic the steel can then be quenched in oil quickly to cause the metal to become brittle, the reason a katana is so strong is that the blade is brittle and hard, while the backing is quite soft and spring like.

Oh great... another "bladesmith"... *sighs* ... take a seat.

Protest all you want. The facts remain. Most everything you stated is popular myth and is easily dispelled by a bit of indepth research. My advice to you is to look more to academic / scholarly materials rather then cheap websites maintained by people with zero credentials as the internet is filled with them.

What era of Japanese swordmaking are you refering to? Koto and Shinto are the earliest known periods of Japanese swordmaking, and those blades have a shallow curve but a curve nonetheless. Anything before that is most likely Chinese, or primitive Japanese where no tempering was used at all. So perhaps you're confusing the strength of the blade with the curve when one should be concerned with tempering which incidently, leads to the curve... and more accurately, it is the quenching phase that lends the katana it's curve.

IMPORTANT NOTES ABOUT PRIMITIVE BLADES. Some additional things to consider. Metals used during the primitive era were impure metals. Hence the technique of "folding". You will notice that most straight blades from the primitive era are double edged and are in no way considered Katana.

Onto blade production -

The process of heat treating you are refering to is known to bladesmiths as "Differential Tempering" or "Hardening". Which you have to remember are similiar but different processes in blade production. Curving a blade on the forge -as you say you do- is an amateur technique and not at all considered proper technique. MANY aspiring bladesmiths are taught to do this. I dont.

Anyway, do a little more research before trying to debate someone who has spent years practicing and researching this information. And also, don't lie to me and tell me you're a bladesmith. I would say a hobbyist at best.

Other things you may find offensive -

Japanese swords were not stronger then european swords. The metallurgical sciences during the Feudal period were far more evolved in Italy and Spain then anywhere else in the world.

Blades were never folded "thousands" of times.

Folding the metal to make a blade stronger is no longer required. Uhhh it's called "Metal Refineries". Metal purity and composition is down to a science! Yay for SCIENCE!

If you wish to discuss blade making with actual production level artists go here www.swordforum.com - also feel free to confirm anything I said here today.

Datus the Grandmaster Ninja assassin. (ninja killer)... (*ahem* i kill ninjas)...

http://swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/chokuto.html
'Nough said.

and you where actualy correct about the heat treating, i mistook modern methods for traditional ones.

Theres also alot to be said about why the ninja used kung-fu insted of ju-jutsu. I blame china for making such bad movies.

I would have to say that link supports what I said almost word for word... so I'm not sure if or how you think it counters my argument. *shrugs*

Chokuto is a primitive era blade and just like I stated earlier, it's design is based on Chinese sword styles and whether or not it could be called a Katana is debatable. Many even contest whether it was Japanese at all as they are believed to have been imported from either China or Korea.

Also, I would be weary to accept that illustration from SFI as concrete. I know that particular page is rather old, and well, not many Chokuto are around that are fully furnished. That illustration is more theoretical except for the blade geometry. But I do like how it points fun at "Ninja logic".

And I quote -

What in my statements makes you think i said that the straight edge swords where not ancient, theres some relevence to the change between the straight edge and the katana because the chokuto is a two handed sword that broke in half when a strong blow was absorbed.
Also i made no reference to european swords, but i rember a story on a show about the history of feutal japan, the straght edge swords and the fact that armies would come back with them broken in two, and about the opressive actions of tokugowa limiting swords to nobles, i might beable to dig something up from google.

Put your E-Weiners away, kids.
No one actually cares about who knows more about their swords or what is even correct, because when the pirates show up, they wont help the ninjas at all anyway.. unless they are "durable" enough to stop artillery.

Secondly, if youre both so intelligent, you should notice the pirates & ninja thread is elsewhere and split from this one.

Lastly, pirates are better because unlike ninjas, they have a sense of humor and fun; rather than stubborn, adrenaline to the head, pride.

Now go to the proper thread:
http://forums.polserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=964

*Tries to zip up his E-Weiner , but in doing so has a revelation.*

I am a pirate!!!!! Anyway you should lock this thread then cause he replied to it and I had to defend my hatred for ninjas. Cause if there is anything I take seriously it's my hatred for ninja.... remember? I did start this thread didn't I? Pirates aren't stubborn or pig headed... hah! Good one!

*grumbles*